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He wasn't a saint.
- He was a hell of guy. - He was just...
so intelligent...
and, um...
[whispering] I'm crying.
[cries softly]
[whispering] I'm sorry.
[sniffles]
[sighs heavily]
- Why are you sad? - I'm sad.
Why?
Oh, I'll tell you about it someday.
[boom]
Do you know who that is?
[Zachary] Andrew.
[Man] Do you know who Andrew is?
[Zachary] I don't know.
Well...
why-why did Andrew get killed?
[Man] Because somebody hurt him, buddy.
I'm an only child
and I'll get around to why this is
of any importance whatsoever.
-But- -[laughter]
Trust me, there's a theme.
[Man] Where were you when you found out?
[Kate] Melanie, who's on the front desk
calls back and says, "Kate, there's a policeman"
from Sunnyvale on the line for you.
"Do you want to talk to him?"
And I said, "Oh yeah, put it through to the office."
"Are you Kathleen Bagby?"
I said, "Yes."
"I've got a message here from Pennsylvania."
You're to call this number.
It's the coroner's office.
"You've got bad news."
[sighs] I said, "Is my son dead?"
And he said, "I can't tell you that, Madam."
He said, "But you've got terrible news."
I dialed this number that he'd given me
And it was a man, an irate man.
"The coroner's office is closed down."
It's nothing you could do about it.
"You have to call back tomorrow morning."
I called back to the Sunnyvale Police Station.
So he gave me another number
and then I got through to Sergeant Krulak
and he said, "Your son is dead
under suspicious circumstances.
Have you got any idea why he was in the park?"
"[whispering] I said, "My son is dead?
Murdered?"
He said, "Yes."
And then I called David.
[phone ringing]
And I said to him...
[voice cracking] "Andrew's dead."
And he said, "No."
And I heard him through the phone.
I called Sergeant Krulak back
and I said, you know, "We're coming."
And he said, "Well, that's good."
[David] Through that flight, we just-we thought,
"We go get Andrew and..."
Bring him back to California and...
get everything organized, whatever,
and then kill ourselves because...
no point in gong on.
That was the first plan. [chuckles]
Obviously, we didn't do that.
And then she gave me the list to Cali
and we start calling.
I came home and there was a message.
-I was walking home- -[overlapping voices]
It was Tuesday morning.
I was just coming out-
I was doing something in the be-
-I was in the living room- -On the couch-
[overlapping voices]
[man] You know, everybody always says,
"Well, what would be the difference
if one person weren't alive?"
[overlapping voices]
[boom]
[Tyler] I came home on November 7th, 2001,
to find a message from my sister.
[beep]
[woman] Hi, Tyler. It's about 9:15.
[Tyler]At 3:41 PM, I called her back.
She told me to sit down.
♪ Ambient tones ♪
[rain pattering]
[Suzanne] In the original news, they said, uh,
"Unidentified man in his 30s
was found in hospital scrubs."
None of those words des- described who he was...
and-and they could put them on paper
and make them true.
Nobody said...
"This person..."
This wonderful person...
was hurt.
[Kurt] We met in first grade at Saint Andrew’s School
in Saratoga, California,
and I soon came to think of him
as my closest friend.
It was here, in the San Jose Bay area,
scattered across the suburbs that make up Silicon Valley
that we all grew up.
There was Chris-
Do I remember how I met Andrew?
-It was... second grade- -[Kurt] And Matt-
I can say without shame
that we bathed together.
-[Kurt] Michelle- -He was the first friend
I made my first day of school.
-[Kurt] John- -We met
the first day of class
because of our names, Adkinson and Bagby.
- [Kurt] Olivier. - We talked for about
20, 30 minutes and I realized,
"Wow, this guy is pretty cool."
-[Kurt] Heather- -I'm sure you guys hear things
[unintelligible]
Between the two of us,
we might actually be able to...
put together a...
half-decent story.
[Kurt]And there was me.
My name's Kurt and I'm a filmmaker.
I'm Kurt Kenny and I play Indiana Jones.
He appeared in every movie I made growing up.
We made a movie!
[Kurt] He loved playing bad guys.
Shut up!
[snaps] Let's go, kid.
A's, huh?
You must be a smart boy.
[Kurt]And having a free pass
to smoke and swear in front of his parents.
- I will fuck you up! - Kiss my ass!
Kiss my ass, you son of bitch!
Christ, start the fucking car and get outta here!
Fuck you!
Fuck all you fucking people!
I did not say the "F" word.
- I'm sorry. - [Kurt] Which was probably
kind of a cool release
for a kid who made Eagle Scout
by age 15.
Mrs. Bagby, having watched it
where Andrew is running around
yelling and screaming,
kind of went-
I can't really remember being-
"Oh, that's not my son."
Perhaps you have a different idea
that I got all upset about it.
- I don't know. - "Not my son."
[Kurt] And eventually, I even got them
- in on the act. - Son of bitch!
You little shit!
You are a pain in the ass.
You little bastard!
Does that give you the right to go
yelling about your penis on the air?
[Kurt] It wasn't always fun and games.
Son of a bitch, ow!
- Jesus! - Did I actually hit you?
I didn't hurt your hand, did I?
Yes, but don't worry about it.
And if you knee me in the balls again,
I'm gonna kill you.
[Kurt]And I know I drove him nuts sometimes.
Can you do that one more time?
- One more time. - Okay, one-
- one more time. - [Kurt] One more time.
[laughs] I want to see that one more time.
That was perfect.
[Andrew] The famous "one more time" line.
- Asshole. - If I hear him saying
"one more time" one more time,
I'm gonna wring his neck.
Jesus Christ, Kurt-
Kurt, what you want?
-I mean- -[Kurt] No, no.
I just need-I'm-I'm just gonna-
But despite it all,
he always supported me.
Kurt, another winner.
Yes.
What are you trying to do?
-[Kurt] This man- -Give a genius a heart attack?
So do we kiss now or hug?
[Kurt] He even invested in my first feature film
while he was working to save for medical school.
Everything was perfect.
I don't know what happened.
We got big and then we got laid.
[Kurt] At his memorial service,
I talked with his med school friend Anthony
-who told me- -one of the major things
that Andrew and I did together, though,
or that we had...
in common was, uh, photography.
[Kurt] I had no idea he took pictures.
I knew him for 22 years.
What else didn’t I know?
I was never gong to get to visit him at his hospital
and see what he was like as a doctor.
I would never be gong to his wedding
where I would finally meet his entire family
at the reception.
He would never be telling me anything
I didn’t already know about him.
So I decided to make this movie
to travel far and wide
to interview everyone who ever knew and loved him
to I earn everything there was to know...
and to make one last movie with him.
I had no idea how many years it would take
or how I would even know when I was done.
But the longer I waited,
the more memories would be lost.
So I started at home in California,
and as soon as I could, I grabbed a camera-
- Okay, Andrew, ready? - And said-
Action!
How would I describe Andrew
to someone who'd never met him?
[man] The man never wore pants.
He only wore shorts.
[man] Constantly!
[man] Boy, Andrew was very good at pool.
[man] Quite frankly, he was a pool shark
is what he was.
[man] Well, he had a good teacher.
[Andrew] All around this side-
When we first met him,
he had this thing with his fingernails.
Oh yeah, he'd always be biting them-
He'd be-he'd bite 'em.
They'd look like they'd been through a shredder
Too late.
He was probably the most determined person
I had ever met about
doing a particular profession.
His mom worked in the business so-
We would sit and discuss a topic...
um, like...
venereal disease.
You know, he didn't get...
an offer to come to medical school at the end of the first year,
and I remember, you know, that was...
that was a big downer.
I think he felt like he wasn't-
like things were kind of stalled for him
and he wasn't really...
he wasn't living up to expectations.
"Wh-what are you gonna do?"
"Okay, I'll get a job and I'll apply again.
"Okay.
That's... problem solution."
And then, of course, Heather brought home this application
she had picked up from Memorial University of Newfoundland.
I had to go look at Saint John's on the map
when he got accepted there.
We-I knew that's over on the east coast.
[David] He's-he's now engaged to this
lovely girl and he's gonna go to med school.
- It was great. - Graduation, he was in shorts.
[Kurt] Hold on a second, we'll come back to this.
But before we go any further...
you've got to know what happened.
The whole truth.
So here it is.
[David] A couple of policemen met us
at the airport in Pittsburgh.
Took us over to the hospital.
Bill and, uh, Clark.
Picked us up and took us over to the...
Botches...
Funeral Home in Greensburg.
And then he took us down the stairway.
Gurney at the other end...
[sighs]
With a white sheet over a body.
And...
went over to him
and when we could see his face...
I said... [sniffles]
"It's really him."
I kissed him and held him and...
Kate kissed him and held him
and kissed him some more
and tears are dropping on him, of course,
and Kate went to wipe one of those away
off his cheek...
and, uh...
a plug came out where he'd been shot
in, uh, in the left cheek.
Oh, my God.
[Kate] [crying]
She push it back in and cried some more.
After that, I lost it
and I just ran outside and screamed.
I was so fucking mad,
I couldn't see straight.
Goddamn it, I hated-
I've never hated like that.
Didn't even know who I hated.
Didn't know who it was.
I just knew that somebody purposely...
put him there and whoever that is...
is a monster.
[Zachary] [unintelligible]
[man] It's a very bad person.
[Zachary] Which bad person?
- [Zachary] A lady? - [man] Mm-hm.
[Zachary] What's her name?
- [man] Shirley. - [Zachary] Shirley?
Why did she killed him?
I couldn't figure out who she was in relation...
to Andrew, since Andrew...
talked a lot about women
but never really mentioned her.
[man] Paulette, this is Bagby's new girlfriend.
Makes me sick to my stomach now,
but I was - I was so excited
that he was dating somebody. [laughs]
[man] Come on, Shirley. Get out from behind him.
I knew he'd been struggling with...
me moving on and dating other people.
[man] Or maybe you will.
You already met me.
I was excited at the thought
that maybe he had found somebody,
um, that he, you know,
could really be happy with.
But it didn't turn out that way.
[Kurt] Did you know her?
Yeah.
[Kurt] Do you remember when they started dating or...?
- Mm-hm. - She just kind of appeared
and then she was there all the time
all of a sudden.
And just didn't seem...
suited for him.
I did see that there was
a considerable age difference.
And then the second time I heard him talk about it,
he actually 'fessed to the age difference.
I was like, "Holy shit."
[man] "Shirley's got three kids. Whoo-hoo!"
Me, I always had to give him a hard time,
so I would tease him about nailin' grandma.
And she seemed so... incongruous
with who I would picture him with.
A person like that doesn't-isn't just, like,
completely normal and then one day, they become...
- a psycho, you know? - [man] Yeah.
I mean, th-there had to be some signs.
She'd just being really inappropriate with things.
Poor taste things that she would say.
[man] She was always making kind of
sexually inappropriate comments.
[Karl] But never threatening.
We never thought of her as...
being threatening, but just...
- something was a little off. - Something wasn't right.
She started calling me on a regular basis.
She talked forever.
Crude things about their...
intimate relationship.
But I thought it was kind of odd when I met her
that she wasn't-was not practicing.
She had finished residency for...
quite some time, and yet, she was having
trouble getting her credentials.
[woman] Nobody said anything
because we all respected Andrew.
And if he wasn't...
putting the pieces together or something...
It just makes me think he was just not caring.
[man] He was likely 4,000 miles away
from where he wanted to be
for the rest of his life.
He had had a very difficult
kind of heartbreaking type of situation
- with Heather. - [woman] You know,
whatever happened with their breakup
really kind of devastated him and...
um...
just left him vulnerable to...
someone like Shirley.
"Andrew!
You know you can do a lot better."
He said, "Ah, no, I really can't."
He'd poke fun at himself all the time.
Yeah, he would, he'd always-
He'd say he was a short,
- [Sherri-Lynn] Yeah. - Portly little fellow.
You don't need to go out with a woman
because you can't think you can do better.
It was a comfort.
And in Newfoundland, it was
somebody to be around and he enjoyed it.
Oh, it's just a...
senior year thing.
[Kurt] After graduation,
he came back to the U.S. to do a surgery residency
in Syracuse, New York,
and he was miserable.
He hated it.
[Kurt] Shirley also decided to move to the States
to practice.
[woman] We were not very aware of
his year in Syracuse.
What a problem she became to him there.
[Anthony] It was a real hard year for him.
There was really no time for anything
and the fact that there was this somebody
that was...
making a lot of effort to maintain
a relationship with the man
represented something else besides
the misery that it sounded like
his internship was.
Um, it was hard for him to pass up.
[Kurt] He pretty quickly realized
that surgery wasn't for him and switched
to a family practice residency
in Latrobe, Pennsylvania in July of 2001.
And he loved it.
"He said, "When you finally find that thing
that you know is your niche,
it's worth-
it's worth everything in the world.
[Kurt] And he now wanted her to go away.
He did not invite her to Matt's wedding.
Yeah, and she thought she was going to be coming.
She just already had it arranged.
[David]And the morning of the wedding,
Andrew's cell phone started ringing.
[ringing]
And he'd answer it, and it's Shirley.
A minute or two later, it’d ring again.
And it's her again.
Andrew got more and more upset with her.
"What is your fucking problem?" And...
clipped off the phone.
She got 30-some odd messages
on his phone.
His phone in his house rang, like, 30 times.
Then his cellphone rang 30 times.
He was like, "Oh, it's her.
I don't want to talk with her."
And apparently, Andrew had already asked Shirley to-
to accompany him to Karl and Marcy's wedding
October 20th before July.
[man] He had broken up with her
a month before in his mind.
[man] It-it sounds so easy, but it's so-
ít's hard when you're a -
a genuine person who cares.
He didn’t know how to be a son of a bitch
because he wasn't a son of a bitch.
[woman] Shirley had been really, like,
all over Andrew,
just acting possessive of him.
[Marci] I asked Andrew, "Hey, do you want something to drink?"
And she said, "There you go,
hitting on the best man."
So I'm - my jaw dropped.
It had to, I'm s-
I remember going...
[Kurt] On the afternoon of Saturday, November 3rd,
2001, he broke up with Shirley
once and for all over lunch at the airport
in Latrobe, Pennsylvania.
Then he put her on a plane back to her place
in Council Bluffs, Iowa...
1,000 miles away.
[Clark] I remember the morning
that Shirley showed up.
[doorbell ring]
"He said, "You'll never guess who
showed up on my doorstep at 5:30."
And I said, "Who?"
He said, "The psychotic bitch."
And I told him, I said, "You know, Andrew..."
When I break up with somebody and put them on a plane
"and send them 1,300 miles away..."
I said, "They knock on my front door,
I'm going out the back door,
and I'm calling the police."
He said, "What do you mean?"
I said, "Andrew..."
[scoffs]
I said, "Be serious."
Nobody drives 16 hours
after you've just broken up with them.
I said, "Do not meet her in private."
He said, "What can happen?"
And he said, "I'm gong to need catch up with you
and we're gonna have to do some serious talking."
Well, I said, "Bring some beer.
I only live a block away."
I said, "When do you think you'll be done?"
He said, "Well...
ít's 4:30 now,
meeting her at six...
7:30, I'll be at your house.
Things people should know about Andrew:
he was never late.
You know what?
When Andrew didn't show up at 7:30...
I knew something was very wrong.
And when I went back down at nine o'clock
and didn't see his car there...
I knew something was wrong.
I- I-
let me tell you the events of the day.
Andrew didn't show up for morning report.
Morning report ended around eight o'clock.
Went down to my office.
I called Andrew's house.
[over phone] Hi, you've reached Andrew Bagby.
Please leave a message at the tone.
Thank you. [beep]
Called his cell phone.
Andrew, where are you at?
No answer on either one.
As I recall, we were getting pretty close
to nine o'clock in the morning
and - and Rhonda and I and some of the residents
are starting to get a little nervous.
But I remember Bill coming in
and standing in front of the television
and telling us.
One of the ER docs turned to me and said,
You know, they - they found a body in scrubs
"out at Key-at Keystone Park."
Dead silence fell over.
A heaviness like I've never felt.
And eventually, almost everyone is congregated there
just waiting for more news.
Rhonda got the call and she said to me,
"They need you in Mr. Clark's office
right now."
And I remember my heart pounding
gong up damn near a sprint.
I opened the door
and I remember seeing three
Pennsylvania State Police Troopers
in uniform sitting in the room.
And I said, You're here to tell me
"about Andrew Bagby, aren't you?"
They asked for us to all to
gather in the conference room,
and they closed the door.
He cleared his throat.
He just walked right up to the podium
and he said-
Andrew Bagby is dead.
"And I said, Well, you don't have to look far."
They're like, What do you mean?
I said, This woman was in town.
"She was here."
I said, "Find her
and I think you'll find who did this."
The summary of the evidence against Shirley Turner.
[Kurt] He was found on the morning of Tuesday, November 6th.
laying behind his car in a parking lot
at Keystone State Park in Derry Township, Pennsylvania.
A man walking through Keystone Park
at 6:10 PM the previous evening, November 5th,
had seen his black Toyota Corolla
park next to an SUV.
This was ten minutes after he told Clark
he was gong to meet Shirley.
Meeting her at six.
[Kurt] Shirley drove a Toyota RAV4 SUV.
He was shot five times:
in the face, the chest,
twice in the buttocks,
and in the back of the head.
He also received a blunt trauma
to the back of the head.
That didn't sound random.
That sounded like rage and vengeance.
[Kurt] The ammunition used was CCl .22 caliber bullets.
There were six spent casings
and one live round on the ground beside him.
Shirley owned a Phoenix Arms .22 caliber handgun.
[Kurt] She had three lessons
with a firearms instructor
who said that at her last lesson,
she was using CCI 22 caliber ammunition
and her gun malfunctioned and would sometimes eject
live rounds onto the ground.
"And she said, No, I can't find it."
And she said,
I gave the gun to Andrew.
[Kurt] She claims she was home sick all day
on Monday, November 5th.
The cell phone records show
that a phone call was made here,
here, here, and here.
[Kurt] While she claims to be home in bed,
she's making cell phone calls from Chicago, Illinois
at 7:08 and 7:10 PM
on Sunday, November 4th,
Then another from South Bend, Indiana
at 10:19 PM that night.
Then another from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
at 8:07 a.m. the next morning
November 5th, the day he was killed.
She logged onto eBay that morning
from his computer at his house.
And back again.
[Kurt] At 11:26 PM that night,
she makes another call from Cleveland, Ohio
clearly on her way home this time.
Then another call from Stuart, Iowa
at 9:48 AM the next morning
Tuesday, November 6th.
Then another when she got home
to Council Bluffs
and this one's to him.
[Kurt] When she realized that she couldn't possibly
be sick in bed when she'd been caught
making cell phone calls
from Pennsylvania and back,
she changed her story again.
Then she said,
I gave the gun to Andrew
in the parking lot and he- and I saw him
put it in his trunk.
That clearly shows...
if she did this...
she planned it.
She is a manipulative, deceitful,
planner of a murder.
[Kurt] In order to prove her whereabouts
when she made these phone calls,
each individual cell tower
along her 16-hour drive had to be manually checked
which was a process that took
almost two weeks.
While the police were uncovering this crucial piece of evidence,
Shirley left the United States
for her home in Saint John's, Newfoundland.
[David] We were absolutely helpless
for the whole time we were in Latrobe
after this initial...
nightmare.
The other residents and...
Andrew's - well, they're Andrew's friends now,
came in...
sat with us...
brought us meals.
They had a sign-up sheet at the hospital...
to bring us a dinner and sit and cry with us.
And-and, uh...
listen to us, and...
cry some more.
Great people.
[man] I mean, the whole hospital grieved.
It was profound.
Just picture the masses that - that -
that...
that just came out for that.
[man] From memorials in Newfoundland,
to California, to England,
-[Kate] To Saint Louis- -[David] To Latrobe.
So proud to say that I loved him
so very much.
[David] And I'd be happy if I had one-tenth of people
care as one-half about as much they did Andrew.
[woman] Well, I know at the point
that we had the memorial service,
she was back in Canada.
Actually, she was there at the memorial service
- that we had here. - She broke down crying
during the service and...
sobbing really loud and...
you know, I-I wonder if it was all just for show.
[woman] And then fear at that point for,
you know, Heather's safety because-
[Heather] She-she came up and-and sort of...
butted one of my friends out beside me
and said...
just...
awful things and obviously I cared
about a lot more about him than he ever cared about me,
and I definitely wasn't important...
umm...
in his life.
Then, I get an email from Shirley
a horrible, scathing email.
It was all basically I was nothing
and she was everything,
how wonderful their love was
and how that'll never die now.
[Kurt] To try to lure her back to the United States,
Shirley was invited to the memorial service in California,
but she didn’t take the bait.
So finally, she was charged.
She was arrested in Saint John's, Newfoundland,
on December 12, 2001...
and was let go on bail the very same day.
When there's flight risk,
it seemed to me common sense
that if she isn't in the jurisdiction
where they want her,
she's fled.
[Kurt] Crown prosecutor Mike Madden
did not even argue against her release on bail
and instead, entered the courtroom with an agreement
already in place for her release.
Pending the next hearing in the extradition process
to the United States, all Justice David Russell
required Shirley to do was... [cha-ching]
Post $75,000 in sureties.
$65,000 of this was posted by
her personal psychiatrist, but I'll come back to him.
Turn in her passports,
sign-in once a week
at the local police station,
promise not to leave Newfoundland,
and avoid contact with these people.
And with that,
the government of Canada let a probable premeditated
first-degree murderer walk the streets.
I thought it was crazy.
Should never be, should never have been.
I thought it was insane.
Who the hell is the system protecting?
[Kurt] I could not believe
this was happening.
But the most unbelievable part
was when we found out about you.
[beep]
[Matt over phone] Kurt, this is
Matt Unger.
I just got a call from Mrs. Bagby.
The abbreviated version is...
Fletcher Bucket, that bitch, uh...
held a press conference and announced
that she's four months pregnant
with Andrew's baby.
They can't prove it until the child’s born.
[inhales deeply]
If it is true, the Bagby's are going to sue for custody.
[Kurt] My movie now took on a whole new meaning.
It was no longer just my search
for what was left of your dad.
It might be the only way you could one day
go back in time, see, and get to know him.
This is a time machine.
Yes, a time machine.
[Kurt]And I vowed to collect every memory for you
before they were gone.
So finally, I set off.
First, I would go to England
to interview your grandma's side of the family for you.
Then, I'd return to the U.S. to do an epic road trip
across North America.
I'd start on the west coast of California
and motor East, stopping to interview
all of your dad's friends and family along the way,
and I would keep driving until the land ran out
in Saint John's, Newfoundland,
the Eastern-most point in all of North America
where the last living piece of Andrew,
you, would be waiting for me.
I grabbed a digital video camera,
a 16-millimeter wind-up movie camera,
and an old Nikon...
I have a good idea.
I'll go back in time and stop you from dying.
[Kurt]And set off on a quest
to bring your dad back to life.
And while I raced to rescue your history,
your grandma and grandpa quit their jobs,
dug into their savings, and gave up everything
to move to Newfoundland to fight for your future.
[Jackie] I met Kate and David
in the spring of 2002.
I'll never forget it.
They needed a lawyer to assist them
in making sure that their rights and the baby's rights
were protected, I guess.
I instantly liked them.
I thought that it was so important
that they have a relationship
with that child.
[David] Our lawyer, Jackie, went to see
Betty Day, an administrator
somewhere in the hierarchy of Child Protective Services
and told her that we, the Bagbys,
are concerned about the safety of the baby...
because the mother is accused
of a premeditated murder.
To me, I thought they were very
emotionally intelligent in how they were...
bearing up under all of this incredible stress.
Uh, you know, they had- that was a Sunday afternoon.
The next morning, they had to sit in the court room
and look at her.
[Kurt] When your grandma and grandpa
first arrived in Canada,
they were told the law is slow.
And they weren't kidding.
February 15th, prosecutor Mike Madden
acknowledged that the extradition request
had been received.
They adjourned until March 11th,
when they decided they'd reconvene to select a date
for the extradition hearing on March 25th,
where they decided to set the date
for the extradition hearing for May 27th,
where they got caught-up debating the French
versus English translations
of section 32 of the Extradition Act,
and decided to adjourn
for a specific translation until June 11th,
a hearing which lasted five minutes,
at which Judge Derek Greene said
he wasn't in a position to rule
on the translation and they would
adjourn again until July 30th.
And while they waited for justice,
and for you to arrive,
your grandma and grandpa made a new home
and new friends.
[Chris] They made friends all over Saint John's.
Uh, people in the legal community,
the medical community.
But here at St. Michael's,
yeah, they-they made-they got their-
they got right in there and got right involved.
It seems like they've always been here.
Basically, they have more friends
in Newfoundland now than we do.
[Ian] Well, ít's a very small Province,
you know, the land mass is as big as, uh,
well, maybe not quite as big as California
but not far off.
And yet, we only have 530,000 population
scattered over that land mass.
[man] You can't go anywhere in St. John's
without running into somebody you know.
[man] I mean, ít's the oldest city in North America.
It's a very safe place, I think.
The big, uh, drawback against living here
is getting out of here.
The weather here is terrible.
The weather is-is awful.
We have eight months of winter and four months of bad weather.
And the other con- very consistent thing that I hear
is that the people are so friendly.
[man] How would you, uh, describe them to someone
who had never met them before?
Do you have an hour?
I was hoping you would ask me about Kate and David
-who are very- -[man] Young at heart.
Childish.
That's not the right word.
He's an engineer in the truest sense of the word.
The guy likes Pintos, okay?
[women] Logical.
Does thing in steps, logical steps.
Comparing Andrew as a teenager and Dave as a teenager,
they're almost twins.
[man] He's an older model.
- Wonderful. - Wonderful.
[Clark] He always calls you "mate."
His father does "mate."
"Hello, mate."
And Kate calls you "love."
[woman] Oh, I thought she was, um, feisty.
Like a little ball of fire.
She's so tiny and then big things come out of her.
It's great that she's on your side,
because she'll always stand up for what she believes in
and those that she loves.
[woman] They're a rare pair.
They were from the start.
In itself, it's quite a-
story, their marriage, you know.
[Kate] I was gong to come here, you know, for the two years
and I was gong on to Australia for two years,
work my way around the world,
and then I was gong back to Devon.
And wasn't gong to get married
because that was not on my list of things to do at all.
[David] I was in the Navy
stationed on an aircraft carrier, the Hornet,
in Long Beach, California.
A guy came into the shop one day,
into the electronic shop, and said he had two English nurses
who wanted to go to Disney Land.
We were too cheap to pay the fare.
Yeah, two cheap English nurses and I took the little one...
and left him with the tall one,
and uh...
they didn't work out so well, but we did.
We went out 13 times in the first two weeks.
And he could quote Shakespeare by the way,
so I knew it was all right.
Five months later, I'm married.
[David] And we moved down to San Diego and started
working on a baby, but nothing happened.
[laughs]
You know, we tried-tried to get pregnant for a year?
Two years with no result.
At some point, uh...
they mentioned that they might adopt, and then, I mean,
it was...
you know, it was like a miracle.
Coming to St. Louis and sleeping in...
my mother's uh bedroom seemed to make people pregnant.
[Kate] And then, of course, Andrew didn't come.
He was two weeks late.
Things people should know about Andrew:
he was never late.
♪ Orchestral music ♪
[beep]
[Heather over phone] Hey, ít's Heather.
It's nine o'clock, Thursday.
Shirley went into labor around three o'clock in the afternoon
on Newfoundland time.
[Kurt] On July 18th, 2002...
you were born.
Shirley named you Zachary Andrew Turner.
Your grandma and grandpa came to the hospital to see you,
but Shirley wouldn't let them in the door.
They stood five feet away from you on the other side of a wall.
They left a gift for you.
[John] Well, your dad was an amazing person.
You're gong to get such a broad range...
of different perspectives of this guy.
You're gonna know what his character was like.
You will know what fun he was to be with.
Um...
And you're going to know that you can be proud of him.
[Kurt] I flew to England to collect the memories
of your grandma's side of the family for you
and arrived just in time for a very special occasion.
Well, we're on the eve of my wedding, for a start.
It's been a bit hectic.
We're just trying to fit this interview in between
all of the preparations.
[Kurt] Your dad crossed the Atlantic to come here
almost every summer, but instead of heading
to the tourist attractions in London, like everyone else,
he'd head to the outskirts to spend time
with his grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins.
He was a king to me, man.
Seriously, man.
[Kurt]And in particular, with his cousin, John.
The main thing, I guess, about being an only child
is that I get to choose my brothers.
Others of you don't.
Sorry.
John, me brother, and Andrew,
born within a month from each other.
In fact, I think it was about 30 seconds
of, like, the normal child.
"Who are you?" "Who are you?"
And then suddenly, snap, that was it.
We often said,
"Well, least I would have each other through life."
John would have Andrew, and Andrew would always have John.
[John] For me, it kind of blurred into this kind of haze
of me and Andrew running around castles, country homes,
ardens, I mean, these fantastic, you know, historical places.
And to us, they were places to play hide and seek,
buy water pistols, shoot each other,
and then get told off and thrown out.
The interest in all this thing always was
just, like, the cultural differences between
someone who'd come from the US
and someone in the UK, you know,
that would used to really bug me, the fact that I knew
he was going to get Star Wars, you know,
kind of six months before me.
That was a killer...
because you know, it would be like, you know,
"Don't you dare tell me anything about this one."
He was almost kind of as well my kind of...
the chaperoning to...
discovering the U.S., really.
You hear people discriminate against a whole country
just in one fell swoop.
You know, but I was fortunate enough enough to know
very differently to that.
[Andrew] I really cherish that because...
it is my brother that got married here tonight.
Bizarrely enough, one of the things is I always wanted
Andrew be my best man at my wedding
[Kurt] As I would soon find out, he was in good company.
I had always wanted him to be my best man.
I'd ask him to be my best man.
It just made sense to have him as best man.
I can only assume that you would have asked him
to be your best man.
Everybody, grab your glass.
We're gonna turn over to the best man, Andrew.
"Best man" is a little bit of a poor title for these things.
I mean the best man is really the groom.
I've got to try and sum up 20-some odd years in...
like, two minutes or so because, you know,
then people will start looking at their champagne
and thinking, "Bagby, shut up or die."
- [laughter] - [Andrew] Umm...
I- I-
I miss him...
a lot. [sniffles]
Umm... [sniffles]
That I wish he was...
here at the wedding with us- [sniffles]
I'd just like to just sit down and talk to him again.
Just to have him here with us.
[Kurt] I really believe your dad was there that day
and if we could have heard him give his toast,
it might have sounded something like this.
[Andrew] Why am I standing up here?
I guess part of it, I've already said.
Uh, we're brothers and I love you.
And I know you love me and, uh...
Yeah, I-I kind of need to move on from that,
because like I said I'm a Bagby male.
We don't-we don't gush very much.
It made me realize that...
it doesn't matter where you come from.
You can meet someone and literally, with in minutes,
you can be closer than someone you've known for 20 years
and someone who may just end up being as a friend
for rest of your life.
[man] And last question:
Is there anything you'd like to say to Zachary?
Zachary-[laughs] right, uh...
I, uh, yeah,
I hope to see you soon, Zachary.
Anyway...
[page turning]
[Kate] Jackie had been down earlier in the day
to file the papers that we wanted custody of the baby.
We finally went to court because we-
- You mean family court? - Yes, in family court.
You know, they - they negotiated with her.
I think, you know that already and - and what access they got
with Shirley, they negotiated.
[Kate] We were coming up with agreements
with this accused murderer, and the Shirley Turner came up with
something else just at the moment
when it was all looking good.
She always did that so that it was extended.
It was like, "I don't have to pay for my lawyer.
You have to pay for yours.
So the longer I could make it, it's better.
You know, you'll run out of money."
But then she finally agreed to give us one hour a week...
in unified family court.
[Kurt] Shirley delayed your grandma and grandpa
from meeting you for almost a month
and had them treated like common criminals
in order to see you.
She required that during their one-hour visit,
they be fully searched and monitored by a supervisor
while she waited in the next room.
[man] When did you first meet him?
Meet him personally or meet him by seeing the light
in Kate and David's eyes?
[Kate] I mean we were searched and everything.
I couldn't wait for him to search.
I would have zipped off all my clothes and be...
as long as I could get to that baby, you know?
We went around the corner and there was this...
overpowering thing that- [gasps]
[David] We did not do complete tug-of-war, though.
- [Kate] No. - [David] I just...
gave him to Kate. [laughs]
No, no, we shared.
[David] No, we took turns.
The next visit, he was really-
[Kate] The next time he was dirty,
so I changed his diaper and that's when he opened his eyes
to just kind of look at me,
and that's when I said to David,
"Oh my God, he's Andrew."
[Jackie] I had seen lots of pictures of Andrew at this point
and even, you know, pictures of him as a child
and I thought...
"Holy crow," you know, "there's no doubt."
[Kate] We wanted more time.
So we went back, and this time, she accused us
of keeping him beyond the time
so that he was distraught when he went back to her.
She'd try a lot of manipulations without thinking them through
and this one was, you know, a no-brainier really.
If she accuses us of doing anything wrong to the baby...
were she's indirectly accusing Marine of being a slouch.
- [man] The supervisor? - The supervisor.
You know, Marine’s not gong to take that.
So she just didn’t think it through.
[Kurt] While your grandparents and Jackie
battled Shirley for more time with you in family court,
the law in the extradition proceedings was still slow.
September 19th, the extradition hearing finally began
and evidence was finally presented.
But just as everything was moving along smoothly
Shirley’s lawyer, Randy Pearcy, threw a wrench into the works.
Because the authority to proceed with these hearings
provided by the Minister of Justice early that year
had failed to specify subsections one or two
of section 229(a) of the criminal code,
the authority to proceed was invalid,
the 90-day limit to amend it was now past, and therefore,
all extradition proceedings against Shirley
should be dropped so she can get on with her life.
Judge Derek Greene now had to rule on whether or not
to throw out the entire case, which would take place
on October 18th, which was delayed four days
until October 22nd, where Judge Green
told Pearcy to forget about it and said they would
continue with the extradition hearing on November 14th.
[boom]
Meanwhile, I came back to California,
pointed the van East toward Newfoundland
and set off across the continent on my way
to see you, stopping all over the map to collect the memories
of a whole spectrum of people your dad touched.
♪ Jazzy music ♪
But it was when I pulled into St. Louis
to see your grandpa's family-
[man] Are you the oldest?
Yeah, I'm the oldest.
Uh, Bob was the middle one.
He's one year younger than me.
[Kurt] That I discovered a very special place
where your dad had left his heart.
[woman] Andrew and Bob were very, very close.
[Jim] To - to see them around each other,
you'd think that Andrew had grown up his entire life
around Bob.
You wouldn't know that it was, um,
once-a-summer relationship.
[woman] Bob used take Andrew out,
let him drive the truck before he was old enough.
- [man] Yeah. - [woman] And they'd play pool.
And my dad was very good at pool,
but then Matt came along who was even, mm,
probably better at pool.
[Mack] Well, I would say was excellent,
but he wasn't as good as me.
He probably still owes me around $30,000.
[Earlene] Hey, Mac...
is my daughter Rhonda's...
first husband.
I don't know, they just clicked.
I mean, they just clicked.
I can't explain why or anything-
Automatically my little brother. [laughs]
It's the way I look at it.
♪ Soft piano ♪
We just become friends.
Yeah, this is our clubhouse, which me and Bob had.
And...
he used to love to come down here.
And as soon as he'd hit town, we'd come out here
and we'd just stay for days.
David and Kate and them would come out,
always had big barbecue or fish fry,
take the jon boat and head up the river,
huge cabin.
I mean, I've gotten to the point
where we didn’t even have to think about who was gonna
drive the boat íf Andrew-
[woman] At nighttime,
they'd stack up the logs and build a bonfire
and we would buy fireworks.
And it would be beautiful, 'cause it was real dark-
[man] ...check and see íf you're hurt
when you're gong to be a damn doctor
you gotta know yourself.
I said, "If you were smart, you'd be a gynecologist."
[woman] Doctor came into the room
and, uh, said he had bad news.
He said that the cancer...
had spread...
to his bones and to his liver.
And I look at him and said, "I want truth."
He said, "three to six months."
[Mack] I mean I can come down here any time I want,
I lost...
I lost all interest in a lot of things
when Bob died, for some reason.
[Earlene] I know it was hard on Andrew, too.
[unintelligible] brought me a little note letter.
Bob was very proud of him.
[Mack] I imagine him and Andrew are laughing at me right now.
Both assholes.
♪ Choral music ♪
[Zachary]Are you sad now?
[Jim] Yeah, I'm still sad.
I'll be okay.
Here, give me a hug.
That'll make me feel better.
He was great.
If there's anything I can do, I'll be there.
Well, we hope to see him.
And we can show him pictures and everything.
And we'd love to be a part of that as well.
To share our lives with him.
Oh, I wish I could be there and pinch those little cheeks.
[laughs]
Zachary, you'll never know what you missed.
[beep]
[Kurt] On November 14th, 2002,
Judge Derek Greene declared that a properly
instructed jury could likely find Shirley guilty.
And ordered her incarcerated
in the Clarenville Correctional Center for Women
awaiting a decision for the Minister of Justice
to surrender her to the United States.
She always seemed to know exactly when to turn nice.
And it was a pretty obvious time to turn nice.
[Kurt] Suddenly, Shirley turned around
and gave your grandma and grandpa custody of you
for as long as she was in prison.
We could stop in and see him whenever we liked.
And we did.
They were so excited, and it was Christmas Eve and...
you know, it had started to snow a little bit
and the doorbell was ringing and someone showed up
with a present and then, I think Alan Goodricky,
who was a professor, one of Andrew’s professors,
he showed up with a...
something, I don't know what, and then you know,
"finally, I said, "What do you got, like, the Magis
showing up at the- [laughs] at your house?"
[woman] We went to church with them on Christmas Eve.
If Zachery got fussy, uh, you know,
they would pick him up and they would feed him
and they walk to the back of the church.
If there's people in this church
that don't know the five of us.
It looks like these are the grandparents,
we're the parents, and Zachary is our child.
I said, "We look like terrible parents!"
[woman] He was besotted with them, the child was.
You know, no one could comfort him, only Kate.
They were so happy-
[Kurt] But it wasn't all sweetness and light.
You came with strings attached.
The reason we reach consent and reason she reached consent
is if you reach consent...
you have some control.
We accept a phone call a day in from jail
to talk about Zachary.
Which a foster home would have done anyways.
[automated voice] This is Aliant Telecom.
You have a collect call from-
[over phone] Shirley.
[automated voice] You may press one now
to accept the charges. [beep]
Thank you.
[David] Hello?
- [Shirley] Hi. - [David]. Yeah, hi.
We'd bring him up to the prison for a weekly visit.
That was an astounding...
imposition.
Each week, they would drive two hours to the jail
where Shirley was so that she would be able to see her son
and to follow the visitation rights,
because just as Kate and David wanted visitation rights,
um, they had to honor Shirley's visitation rights.
And in the winter.
But the weather, needless to say, in Newfoundland-
The weather here is terrible.
[woman] To make that journey was awful.
Only Kate and David would have done it really, I think.
Nobody else would have done it.
The one guard the one day said to Kate and David
speaking to Zachary,
"Zachary, I hope, um, someday you will realize
how brave and courageous your grandparents are."
Like, I think if I could be a quarter of the grandma
that Kate is, I'll be such a success.
You know, seeing them with Zachary,
just to see the looks on their faces, Kurt,
when - when-when they'd have him, you know-
[Jackie] You know to see them so happy...
and then, you know...
that ended, didn't it?
♪ Acoustic fingerpicking ♪
[Kurt] Now crossing the east coast of the U.S.,
I was almost to you.
I pulled off the main road for one last stop:
a small town, Utopia, where your dad had spent
the last four months of his life.
It was here that I would find the only people
who knew what he was like as a doctor,
just days before they would graduate
and scatter to the winds.
[woman] Oh, Latrobe is famous for Mr. Rogers-
[man] Of, uh, children's TV fame.
[Jennifer] Rolling Rock beer,
ít's the birthplace of professional football...
though, some would argue that.
Strickler's Pharmacy.
I'm told that the Banana Split was invented here in Latrobe.
And Arnold Palmer.
[man] Mr. Palmer's a very important figure
in this community.
[man] This is a community where people don't even lock their doors.
[Kurt] Your dad's door was directly across the street
from the hospital, giving him a 30-second commute to work.
[Man] And I said, "Can I call you Andy?"
And he goes, "Actually, I don't like Andy."
[man] He said, "But you can call me Andrew,
you can call me Bagby, you can call me Bags."
[woman] I never did. [laughs]
[Kurt] 10 minutes after I arrived, doctor Bill DeCuchillo
picked me up to show me around town.
His class.
It it was Bill DeCuchillo.
[Kurt]And after hanging with Bill for a short while,
I completely understood why.
This is yours to take with you in your travels
to remember the chief resident's office.
They were like Mutt and Jeff.
[man] They were Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
[Greg] Bill was just devastated, as we all were,
but especially so.
I think Bill had spent more time with him.
And I-know that as a third-year resident,
Clark was quite close with him.
He was this-this surgical resident from Syracuse.
Being a former surgical intern, that's a big deal.
They're all about cutting and
what we do is a little bit different.
It's more about people.
I would say to him, um,
"Now, you go out there and you go,"
and you listen to the heart and you talk to those people
because, you know, like, people talk.
They're not just unconscious all the time.
[Kurt] Your dad also had an office visit
every Monday afternoon at the last place
he was ever seen alive:
a clinic in the small town of Salzburg,
a beautiful 30-minute drive away through the country,
past a lovely spot called Keystone State Park.
He was already, just within a couple of months,
already getting patients to Cali
and specifically ask for him.
Hi, I'm Dr. Bagby.
People trusted him when he walked into a room.
Medicine's a little like being a detective.
Does anyone else in your family experience this?
You think of people who have passed,
you can't help but paint a rosy glow around them.
More than half of it...
is being able to get a story on somebody.
It's not what's happening in this case.
I'll always be grateful to him because he diagnosed
my nephew's cancer, and he diagnosed it early enough
that he was able to get complete treatment.
He was really pretty outstanding at this stuff.
He was told he may never have children.
He just has a newborn baby.
[man] He always told me that he wanted to practice
in a town the size of Latrobe and be, like,
the doc of the town, know everybody,
and know everybody's family.
[Kate] And we really thought he'd found heaven.
But we packed our bags and went to bed
because we knew were gong to be leaving the next morning.
[David] And we stayed in-in the upstairs spare bedroom
of Andrew’s house.
[Kate] The next morning, we saw him off at 6:30.
And as I said, that's when I noticed he was blinking
for the first time.
And he did that when he was a little boy
when he was nervous or worried about something,
just blink...
blink, blink.
And I wanted to say to him,
"Oh, Andrew, what's the matter?"
He stood up.
And I remember he looked at us such a long time and-
but he came over and he kissed me and kissed his dad
and then he got halfway into that room
and he came back and kissed us again,
and we went with him and he kissed us again at the door,
and then he got across the hospital there
down that alley and just went...
[medical beeping]
And he was gone.
That was the last time until...
we saw him dead.
"[woman] And I can remember Andrew saying, "If I-
if I die tomorrow, all I want you to do
is sit and, um,
toast a beer to me.
Do you remember that?
When his parents had finished cleaning
out his apartment, they gave me...
his last...
beer.
We have one bottle remaining.
We're going to crack Andrew's last Fuller's ESB
right now and, uh,
Kurt and I are going to sip it together.
Little toast to our friend.
To Andrew, my good friend.
I can't wait to see you again.
[engine running]
And then, of course,
the unthinkable happened again.
They let her out of jail again.
And we had to give him back.
On January 10th, 2003.
[Kurt] Shirley was out of money
and out of a lawyer.
So she wrote directly to judge Derek Greene
who responded through his secretary with instructions
on how to write her own appeal of his decision
to incarcerate her while awaiting an order
from the Minister of Justice to surrender her to the States.
[woman] I have a few friends who are judges and...
no, [laughs] there's no way...
they would ever have responded...
in the way that judge responded to Shirley.
[Kurt] She did and was let back onto the streets by-
- Judge Gail Welsh. - Judge Gail Welsh.
[Kurt] Welsh refused to even consider
prosecutor Mike Madden's argument
that Shirley’s appeal was frivolous,
even though multiple Legal Aid Commission attorneys
had reviewed her appeal
and refused to waste their time representing her.
[Kate] And íf you could have seen-
I knew that we were gong to be
seeing Shirley turn and walk free
the minute that woman walked into the room, Judge Welsh.
She was almost fawning with Shirley Turner,
as-as I saw it.
"Oh, Dr. Turner," she said.
[Kurt] I recognize that you're not represented,
but also know that, as a doctor, you're quite capable,
so I'm gong to run-
Dr. Turner, I'm not trying to exclude you.
However, the argument would work to your benefit.
That's why I'm particularly interested
in Mr. Madden's response.
I'd taken Zachery to prison,
I'd sat in their same little room with her,
and here I am having to listen to this
and the judge fawn on this woman.
[Kurt] And Welsh actually asked an accused murderer
to promise she'd behave herself.
"If I make an order giving you judicial interim release"
it would be on the basis that you would not attempt to flee
or hide or avoid subsequent judicial proceedings
related to this matter?
Yes.
Is that completely understood by you?
Yes, I completely understand.
And here, David and I, as if we don't even exist
and we don't exist.
They don't care about us.
They don't even care about the victim.
[Kurt] She concluded that-
And this is from her written decision.
[Kurt] Dr. Turner's detention is not necessary
in the public interest.
While the offense with which she is charged
is a violent and serious one,
it was not directed at the public at large.
There is no indication of a psychological disorder
that would give concern about potential harm
to the public generally, as her crime, while violent,
was specific in nature.
She is saying, in effect,
if I understand that-that sentence,
even if she did it...
she's not a danger to the community
because she's already killed the only one
she wanted to kill.
He's the one she was mad at.
He's dead.
So she's not likely to kill again.
And I find that logic absolutely atrocious.
Most of us do not kill people who anger us.
We go kick a door
Scream and shout.
Some of us throw a punch.
But we don't set them up and kill them.
You have here a human being
who thinks they have the right to kill other people
who anger them.
And you still let them out in the general populace.
I find that appalling.
[Kurt] She was, again, let go on $75,000 in sureties,
not one penny of which had to be paid
and with that the government of Canada
let a probable premeditated first-degree murderer
walk the streets...
again.
And they gave you back to her.
And after that, things got really weird.
We went and and wrote another consent order
and we agreed to a schedule of visits
with, like, three or four hours
three times a week,
and an overnight every two weeks.
We got them to let us have more contact...
with Shirley...
in order to-
-passing back and forth- -passing back and forth-
Otherwise, we never could have done it.
[ringing]
Because we would always have to arrange
for a third party.
And then that third party would be not available
and that-we saw that we'd never get visits
with the baby because she could always find a reason
that there was nobody there, you know?
So this evolved into...
us actually spending a great deal of time
with Shirley Turner.
In order to be around Zachary.
What kind of things did you do?
- Go to the mall. - [Kate] Go to the movies,
swimming lessons, we took him to.
She came here bold as brass,
coming to be in our face kind of thing.
[Helen] I had e-enormous fears for them.
I had a fear that Shirley would...
go for them.
And they didn't seem to be...
worried for themselves.
In fact, they said weren't.
That at this point, that they didn't care.
[man] Can you describe what the process was like for you?
-Disgusting -Oh, disgusting.
But going up to the door, I mean-
Having to be with her.
It's just...
nauseating.
We religiously did not talk about the case.
-She tried to suck us through- -She brought it up one time
And she'd talk about, um,
you know, "Was Andrew's hair light when he was a baby?"
And we'd just shut up.
I thought it was like being at war.
Nobody wants to do it, but you got to do it.
So, facing this bitch-
It's the price we had to pay
to make sure we had a good connection
with Zachary.
He knew us, we knew him.
So that when she finally went to prison-
He had a smooth transition into our life.
I just feel awe about that.
I- I-I can't, uh...
I don't know how they did it, Kurt.
I don't know how they did it, but I know why they did it.
[birds chirping]
♪ Emotional piano ♪
[Kurt] And finally,
after thousands of miles and memories,
on a rainy Sunday afternoon,
we met.
♪ Soft piano ♪
- [Kurt] Hey, little bud! - [woman] Hi, Zachary!
Hello.
This is your uncle Kurt.
[woman] Aww!
[overlapping chatter]
[woman] There we go.
[laughs]
He knew your daddy from when he was a little boy.
[woman] Yeah?
[indistinct chatter]
[Kurt] Beth, is there anything that you
would like to say to Zachary?
Oh, wow.
Without tearing up here? Uh...
♪ soft piano ♪
First of all, I saw your pictures...
and you are a very cute kid
and you look exactly like Andrew.
Definitely the cheeky Andrew face, definitely.
- Ah. - [laughter]
[Clark] Zachary, you're a lucky little boy.
And you're an unfortunate little boy.
Your father, who you'll never know...
was such an amazing guy,
and he touched so many people...
in such a short period of time.
[woman] It's not just a bunch of... stories.
He was a real person.
Quite frankly, don't let anybody lie to you,
wouldn't eat anything green until he went away to college.
Zachary is asleep in the other room.
He's spending the night.
[Clark]And you're an unfortunate little boy
because you're more than likely to grow up without...
your biological father...
or your biological mother.
But with a little bit of luck...
you'll get to grow up with Andrew's parents.
And let me tell you this:
they did the most amazíng job.
You couldn't ask for two better people.
[Kate] [singing] Grandma loves you, yes she does.
Granddad loves you, yes he does.
Daddy love you, yes he does.
Uncle Kurt's here and he loves you too.
We all love you all we can.
Darling, darling little man.
[Clark] And so from that perspective,
you're the luckiest little boy in the world.
They love you more than life itself.
And íf you ever need anything,
I'm not far away, either.
And know we'll be there for you
in every way that he can't be.
Zach, when you're old enough and you watch this,
if you ever want to talk to me personally,
or you want to come and see me
you have an open invitation and you should know that.
And you're loved and I love you and
I care about the person you're going to become.
We love him and we do simple things
- like send him books. - Happy Birthday.
- We can't wait to meet him. - I hope to get the chance...
to meet you.
I hope, uh, I'm Uncle Ken to Zachary.
[man] If you're anything like Andrew...
it's going to be good.
I think that you'll turn out just great.
[man] This is student affairs.
Are you-are you a student?
Who knows? Maybe someday,
you'll be applying here to the faculty of medicine.
[man] Does this look exciting?
We are going to do an interview.
[woman] Even though things started tragically,
you know, he's the blessing Andrew left behind.
[Kurt] I parked the van two blocks away
because it was the only vehicle for miles
with California plates that would give away to Shirley
that I was in town.
- Sort of a stealth van. - [Kurt] Exactly.
[Kurt] If she knew, I was afraid she would find excuses
to withhold you so that I couldn't see you.
[doorbell rings]
Every time the doorbell rang,
I hid in the back bedroom
as it could have been her
just dropping by unannounced.
[over phone] Hi, Dave. Hi, Kate. This is Shirley.
[Kurt] On the days we didn’t have you
I discovered your dad's medical school world,
met his classmates,
found more footage of him for you...
And finally,
I found myself face-to-face
with the thing that had set me on this journey
in the first place.
One of the major things that Andrew and I
did together, though, uh,
or that we had in common was, uh,
photography.
Sometimes, we'd bring the cameras out
and go around the lake and around the pond
and take some pictures around there.
I told Andrew, I'd say, "Listen, you're gonna have to, like,"
show me a few tricks or whatever
"and show me some of your pictures" and then-
I'd still love to see some of the pictures that he took
through medical school and I've never seen
any of them.
♪ Gentle piano ♪
[Anthony] Him and his dad had done quite a bit
of photography together, and, uh,
right after this happened,
fired out an email saying we should try to think of some
sort of memorial award.
And I felt like that would be something also that
his dad would really feel honored by
and then have a wall in the medical school
to be able to say, you know, year after year,
"you know, "These are the winners
and people could sit there and look and be like,
"Wow, " you know, "look at this."
I think I have a meeting tomorrow morning
to, uh, participate in the judging tomorrow.
I find it interesting that you say that
you hadn't heard that.
I wonder if part of it was eventually maybe
have his dad independently say,
"Oh, who took this picture?
It's a really nice picture."
And have him say, "Oh, me."
I don't know.
But ít's something he did.
[camera bulb flash]
[Kurt] On July 18, 2003,
you turned one.
[Kurt] Shirley decided to hold a birthday party for you
at McDonald's.
[Kate] She started to open presents.
Well, he wasn't interested in presents.
He wanted to get down.
So when he got down,
he made for me.
Shirley was very, very angry.
So she said,
"He loves you more than me.
Why don't you take him?"
Zachary always...
from the time he could choose...
would choose Kate over her.
[woman] That was obvious and...
other people talked about it.
[David] Kate is a
warm and loving mother.
She was a phony mother.
[Shirley] I love you.
Mommy loves you.
Yes, I do.
She knew the motions,
but there's no warmth in her.
[Shirley] Zachary, love you baby.
Mommy loves you.
She said that she had kids
and that she wasn't interested in living with them either.
Andrew said she kind of went off to medical school
- and left them. - [woman] And she said
that they lived with their fathers
and she said that children were more
trouble than they were worth.
[Vero] I believe she's using her own children now
to manipulate the system
and to make Kate and David suffer.
Even if she goes to jail.
Fortunately, there are enough people here
who are in the, uh, in the system,
the justice system, the child protection system...
that I know personally who...
have told me
that that will not happen.
[Kurt] The next hearing in the extradition process
was set for September 25th,
your dad's 30th birthday,
where she would likely be re-incarcerated
and at last, returned to the U. S. for trial.
But for now,
it was time for me to go home.
I have to say bye-by now?
Gonna say bye-bye?
Bye-bye to your Uncle Kurt.
Can you give him a hug?
Can I have a hug?
[David] Grab him and take it.
[blows raspberries]
Was that funny?
Bye-bye, sweet pea.
I'll see you later, buddy.
You'll be a little bigger next time I see you.
[Danette] He had just completed
the child health checks that they do.
He's head of his time, he's doing great.
He's up to par on everything,
but, err, he doesn't like to wave goodbye.
[Kurt] Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.
Bye-bye-bye, bye-bye-
[Danette] One of them said,
"That's fine because, you know,
he's got lots of time to I earn that."
[Kurt] Is there anything you'd like to say to Zachary?
[man] I'm hoping that I'm gong to have
all the opportunity to say those things to Zachary.
[Kate] We had been out, we came back here,
there was a little card in the door
from Constable Walsh
saying that would we contact him.
I was here.
Mark and I were here.
I was at my house.
I was home
watching the six o'clock NTV News
and...
the next thing, I saw a picture
of Shirley and Zachary
and saying that-
They were missing
and I was just screaming
at the top of my lungs.
And I immediately fell to the floor.
I immediately went over to their apartment.
- And we came here. - So we just left
and got in the car and went over there.
[Kate] Our vicar came by because he'd heard-
I'll never forget that moment.
They're gonna find them, they're gonna be okay.
You're overreacting.
You're gonna think the worst.
You know, she's probably gone for a-
My first thought was that she had left.
She had taken him and run.
[Jackie] She wouldn't do that.
She couldn't possibly do that.
There was about two or three hours of
uncertainty or-
Emotion was overwhelming.
They called us and told us
that they were doing a search of the beach
out in Conception Bay South.
I thought, "They doing that for a reason ."
[Danette] I had received a call.
They were having a press conference on
the Turner case.
I went to Father Chris.
I just whispered to him,
"I think you better stay,"
because I think I'm gonna be coming back here
"with some really bad news."
He told me that they had found a baby.
Along with an adult.
I knew then that it was two bodies.
They were working to identify the bodies and-
[unintelligible] [doorbell rings]
[Kate] We came to the door
and it was Jackie and Constable Walsh.
And I was saying, "Oh my gosh,
somebody's with them now trying to tell them ."
They went in and I told them.
And...
what I saw after that,
I will never forget in my life.
[screaming]
[David] Great absolute vicious rage.
Someone has done that to someone you love.
If the person who did this had been here,
I'd kill them.
Period, no questions, kill them.
Strangle that fucking bitch
right here, right now,
period, no question, kill them.
[disorienting noises]
[Kate] And then, we went to have to identify him
and we couldn't touch him...
because they said he was forensic.
[David] He hadn't been through the autopsy yet.
There was this table and...
saw the white sheets up all around him but
with a white sheet over a body,
you could see over sheets.
Clearly, it was his-
it was him.
It's really him.
[soft crying]
And then Kate's legs quit.
She just went straight to the floor and-
David was...
lying on top of Kate on the floor
and we managed to get him out.
I don't know how we did it, Kurt.
I don't know how I got out myself.
Their poor little baby.
The summary of the evidence
against Shirley Turner.
[Kurt] Part two.
In July of 2003,
Shirley met a man at a bar
in downtown St. John 's.
They went out twice
until his friends showed him articles on the web
saying she was accused of killing her last boyfriend.
He told her he didn’t want to see her anymore.
She then called and left over 200 messages on his phone
including one saying that she was pregnant
and that he needed to-
[David] Step up to the plate and be a fucking man.
[Kurt] She wasn't, as her autopsy showed.
The night she killed you,
she made a phony phone call from her apartment
to a friend’s answering machine
claiming to be at this man's house with you.
She took your brother TJ's car at about 11:38 that night
and drove to the man's house.
She got lost along the way and asked a woman for directions
along this road around 12:45 AM.
She parked behind his house,
left a used tampon and photos of the two of you
on his property, completing her attempt
to frame this man for what she was about to do,
then took you down to the ocean behind his home.
A night watchman the area thought he heard a baby crying
in the distance around 2:30 AM.
Shirley took her prescription for Ativan
prescribed to her by psychiatrist Jean Do us set,
mixed it into your formula, then took some herself.
The only good thing we know about this
is that you were not conscious
and you did not suffer.
She then-
she then walked to the edge of a pier
and with you strapped to her stomach with a sweater,
she jumped into the Atlantic Ocean.
[splash]
[Shirley] Mommy loves you.
Yes, I do.
Mommy loves you.
Did you have a nice nap?
What did you dream about?
Mommy loves you.
Mommy misses you.
[Kate] He was found face upwards
with his eyes wide open
and the policeman who found him
said that, um,
he had wrapped him in a blanket
rather than a plastic bag and, uh,
he and another officer
carried him gently back
and he made very sure that he kept the body
very far away from the wicked woman
who had murdered him.
When we came here,
David and I realized what Shirley Turner was.
She was the devil.
But people think that you're some kind of
basic religious nut
if you believe in the devil.
[woman] I haven't prayed since Zachary died.
I haven't-
I have some issues that I have to deal with, I-
You know, my faith has been tested by this.
[woman] It was a beautiful service.
A real tribute to the little boy.
Oh, I don't know how many people were here.
Probably three or 400 people, maybe more.
I don't-I don't recall.
I've never seen a coffin...
so small before.
They shouldn't have them that size.
He was in his little suit,
[unintelligible]
[Kurt] What went in it?
[Heather] What went in it? His little ball...
and...
I don't remember if she put a truck in.
Lots of kisses and hugs and tears went in it.
Lot's of hopes and dreams.
[Kurt] Your grandma and grandpa went back to England
and spread your ashes with your dad's.
They went back to St. Louis
and spread your ashes with your dad's.
[Kate] [crying] I didn’t go with him.
[Kurt] Andrew wanted to be great cremated.
Oh, yes.
-Yes, it- -What bothers Kate is
that she did not go with him
to the crematorium
and stay with him right to the end.
He went from the funeral home
to the crematorium all alone...
in plastic bags.
[crying] With only his head sticking out.
Come on, Kate.
He wouldn't care about that.
[cries]
That's why we went right up
to the oven doors with Zachary.
[cries]
This is what that fucking bitch didn't know.
Or maybe she did know
this is what she's leaving.
Maybe she did know.
If she thought about it at all,
she didn't give a good goddamn.
And this is what I hate her for.
I hate her for a lot of things.
Stealing the rest of Andrew's life
and virtually all of Zachary's life
and then this.
Leaving us like this.
A couple of times, lying in there in bed at night...
I considered...
fixing the problem myself.
Pick a night when Kate took a sleeping pill,
so she wouldn't know I was up.
Get up in the middle of the night
dream up a pretext, go kill Shirley,
and come back and go back to bed.
So Kate would not know.
That way...
number one, she could not harm Zachary
And number two,
even if they did catch me at it
I'm-I'm the first one they'd come looking for, of course.
But Kate could truthfully say
she didn't know that I was doing it.
So she might still get to...
bring up Zachary, get him started
even if I go to-go to prison in Canada.
We've worked through the possibilities.
Ad nauseam.
Suppose we grab Zachary and run.
Number one, we got to get off the island
and into the land.
The big, uh, drawback against living here
is getting out of here.
[David] There's only three ways to do that:
ferry, boat, airplane.
The airplane and the ferry would be covered
as soon as Zachary's missing.
We'd have to hire a boat somehow
which means you take in a third party
to the crime of kidnapping.
We can't go home.
We cannot ever identify ourselves
as ourselves.
Have cash only stashed all around the country.
Zachary would never be allowed to know his family,
our friends.
So, that path...
Big, big, big, big risk with a-with a horrible life.
So that's out.
Legal approaches we might have taken:
invent something,
file affidavits, saying, you know,
Shirley slipped one night
and we were around and said a threat of some kind
that might get her incarcerated.
But that would just be our word against hers.
The best shot we had
at keeping Zachary alive
was I kill her myself.
Other than doing that,
I can think of no other way...
to save Zachary from that bitch.
[sighs]
[laughs]
There's a logic in it. [laughs]
But I didn't do it.
Because I trusted government to do its job.
Government is supposed to stop that,
so I don't have to do it personally.
In this case, they didn't even get her off the street
and they even gave her a baby to look after.
My understanding is that the proper protocols were followed.
I have asked my officials to, uh-
did ask him some time ago to...
follow up with the-with the board
to see, in fact, that, uh,
everything, uh, all the proper protocols had been adhered to.
They were gambling Zachary's life,
they were gambling with the lives of
anyone in the general population
that Shirley came in contact with.
We the-the vast majority of good people
who don't kill people...
are stuck.
We got nowhere to go.
We figured we'd hold a press conference
and try to push for...
changes in law.
So the morning that we had
scheduled the press conference,
I was in the shower and Kate came in with the phone.
It's Jackie.
She says, "We can't hold a press conference.
Technically, there is still a press...
ban in place."
I said, "Fuck 'em fuck 'em ."
If they're willing to lock me up for talking
while they let murderers walk around free,
"just fuck 'em ."
We believe that Shirley Turner bears 100 percent
of the responsibility
for the murder of our son, Andrew.
We believe that the legal system
helped her to kill our grandson, Zachary,
When Shirley Turner was formally charged
and escaped to Canada.
We naively thought she would be sent back to Pennsylvania
within a few weeks at the most.
When we learned that she was out on bail
under an order from Justice David Russell,
we were numb!
Numb!
[over phone] Good afternoon, Judge Russell's office.
[Kurt] I'm a, uh, documentary filmmaker.
And I'm doing a, uh, documentary
about the Zachary Turner case and was curious-
[over phone] I think all he might have done one time
was probably a bail review.
Is that what you're calling about?
Yeah, It was December 12, 2001 actually, yeah.
[over phone] Oh, okay.
Judge Russell was sorry,
but he won't be able to be interviewed
in connection with that matter.
[Kurt] Crown prosecutor Mike Madden
didn’t even argue against her release
on bail that day and instead
entered the courtroom with an agreement
already in place for her release.
[Mike] Mike Madden speaking.
[Kurt] I'm a, um, documentary filmmaker
who was, uh, a friend of Andrew Bagby.
- [Mike] Yes. - Wondering if you would
be, uh, interested interviewed for my-
[Mike] No, I don't think so.
[Kurt] Not one penny of her bail sureties had to be paid
by anyone who signed, nor do they have to show proof
of ability to pay.
[Kate] No money's put up.
No money at all.
It's useless.
Yeah, they could have put 20 cents or 20 million dollars,
it wouldn't make any difference.
Her psychiatrist put up the the 65
and that's another issue all together.
[over phone] Hi, you've reached Dr. Doucet's office.
Please leave your name telephone number
and a brief message. [beep]
Hi, I'm calling for Dr. Doucet.
My call was not returned.
[David] Time, we thought it was all about time.
Each step in the extradition process,
each incomprehensible delay.
Four weeks, six weeks, over and over again.
There was another knife in our guts.
"The law is slow," they told us and it was.
Our lawyer Jackie went to see Betty Day,
an administrator somewhere in the hierarchy of
Child Protective Services and told her that we are concerned
about the safety of the baby because the mother is accused
of a premeditated murder and...
nothing happened.
[over phone] Hello, Department f Health and Community Services.
Hi, I'm trying to reach Elizabeth Day.
[automated] Elizabeth Day is not available.
Please record your message.
[Kurt] My call was not returned.
If you were in the Family Health Services,
wouldn't you want to know who this accused murderer
was arranging for her baby to stay with?
Nobody ever came to see us.
Even before we left Sunnyvale, we got a police report that said
that we were good people.
Friends and my employer were set
to write letters that we were upright members of the community.
Nobody asked us for that.
We could have been convicted child molesters
in California
- They didn't care. - Nobody would have known.
[Kurt] She wrote directly to Judge Derek Greene
who responded through his secretary with instructions
on how to write her own appeal of his decision
to incarcerate her.
- [Derek] Mr. Kenny? - [Kurt] Yes?
[Derek] This is Chief Justice Greene.
What I did is...
on the record, speaks for itself.
Okay, okay.
[David] Under an order from Justice Gail Welsh
Shirley Turner was released on bail again,
and we went numb again,
and we had to give Zachary right back into the hands
of Andrew’s killer.
[Kurt] There is no indication of a psychological disorder
that would give concern about potential harm
to the public generally.
Shirley’s last boyfriend before Andrew
told Pennsylvania police that Shirley attempted suicide
on his front doorstep after he broke up with her
and had threatened to kill him.
There is no indication of a psychological disorder
that would give concern about potential harm
to the public generally.
Eight people had restraining orders against her.
There is no indication of a psychological disorder
that would give concern about potential harm
to the public generally.
If any one had bothered to check the jail records
during her two-month stay, the prison psychiatrist
put her on suicide watch every 15 minutes.
She was incredibly disruptive and even threatened to stab
another inmate with a fork.
There is no indication of a psychological disorder
that would give concern about potential harm
to the public generally.
As her crime, while violent, was specific in nature-
The man she was terrorizing called the police
and reported Shirley, but because he didn't
leave his name, no one took any action.
As her crime, while violent, was specific in nature-
[David] Andrew rejected her and she killed him.
Zachary rejected her.
Paid the price, too.
[Kurt] As her crime, while violent, was specific in nature-
[woman] Of course, the crime was specific.
She didn’t shoot into a crowd of people.
[David] We could not conceive how
they could let a probable premeditated murderer...
probable premeditated murderer walk the streets.
[Kurt] Dr. Turner's detention is not
necessary in the public interest.
Who the hell is the system protecting?
[Kurt] Dr. Turner's detention is not
necessary in the public interest.
And we waited and we waited and we waited
for the authorities to do their job
and lock her up!
You got a dead body with five holes in it
and it means nothing.
Under an order from Justice Gail Welsh.
[over phone] Good afternoon, Court of Appeals.
Hi, may please speak to Judge Welsh, please?
[woman] Is she expecting your call?
Uh, probably not, no.
And now, we got a second dead body
that couldn't breathe through water.
[woman] I just spoke with Judge Welsh and she said no.
She said no, so I just wanted to let you know.
[Kurt] Dr. Turner's detention is not necessary
in the public interest.
♪ Dramatic music ♪
- [gunshot] - [Andrew] [screams]
[gunshots]
[car engine starts]
[car screeches away]
[birds chirping]
[David] She had to be stopped,
the people who were supposed to stop her didn't,
and she got to kill again.
And I'm gong to do my damnedest
to see if I can make them him change the way they-
they deal with killers.
[Kurt] And with that,
your grandma and grandpa became activists.
We victims-
[David] We want, number one,
the whole truth public
about why Zachary died.
They've developed a, uh, program,
a support group for people who've had
a death through, uh, you know,
violent death.
[woman] Welcome to our first, uh,
Victims of Homicide Annual Vigil.
[Kate] In this last year, I've just taken training
to become a child advocate
in the dependency court system.
[man] Jean Doucet, the psychiatrist who posted
$65, 000 bail for Mrs. Turner
was found guilty of professional misconduct.
[woman] It was David Bagby and his wife
who launched the complaint against Doucet
The three-person panel ordered Doucet
to undergo psychiatric counseling.
[Jackie] There was a lot of sympathy for David and Kate.
I think it got them at least a result
that did they-that they were hoping to accomplish.
Mr. Wick, child and youth advocate
for Newfoundland Labrador
is doing a child death review,
which is a formal investigation.
And the output of it is a report
saying "Here's why that baby died,"
and recommendations for changes
to cut the chance of that happening
in the future.
Obviously- [laughs]
once that's done, then we would like to see
that go to whatever legislative bodies
either provincial or fed era I
can write laws to make these recommendations real.
[woman] And a report into the death of Zachary Turner
will be released in Newfoundland.
He was drowned by his mother.
[Kurt] Your grandma was temporarily injured in a fall
and couldn't make the trip.
So your grandpa and I came alone.
[Darlene] Dr. Marcus Stein conducted an exhaustive
investigation over a 15-month period.
He reached two key conclusions:
one, Zachary Turner's death was preventable,
and two, Zachary was in his mother's care
when he should not have been.
The government has received a scathing report
that concluded the child protection system
failed Zachary Turner.
A serious lack of judgment
at the senior management level.
Substandard child protection practices
contributed to the outcomes.
[man] There are 58 recommendations
- in the report. - I am announcing
our action plan.
We will develop policy specific to children
whose parents are charged with a violent crime.
The part I was most interested in,
as I said, is bail.
Why was Dr. Shirley Turner
granted judicial interim release
commonly known as bail?
This is the one question that Dr. Marcus Stein
did not and could not answer.
[man] So that's still an open wound, if you would.
May I?
He did say this:
"Had Dr. Turner not been released on bail
on 12 December, 2001,
or on 10 January, 2003,
my review would have been unnecessary,
Zachary would be alive today.
I would like to see parliament pass a law
denying bail to people accused of murder.
Put them on the fast track to get to trial
and get on with it, get to the truth.
The only way I can see it changing
is for every citizen cares about this
to tell his MP that this law is stupid, change it.
And, of course, such a selfish thing to do.
She not only killed Andrew,
but she left three other children without a mother
which is very sad for them.
[man] And what kind of regret does that give you?
Well, if, uh, things were different, I guess...
it's possible he'd still be alive
and rather than...
memories of just one year...
it would be, um, a lot of years around.
[man] Tough losing a little brother.
[TJ] Yeah, yeah definitely.
[David] Zachary should be right here with me.
He should be off gong to school now
getting ready to go to school.
I'm going to continue to scream long and loud
about bail...
for someone accused of...
what Shirley did to my son.
[bang]
♪ Acoustic fingerpicking ♪
[Kurt] I traveled the world for years
looking for what was left of your dad.
I'd made dozens of new friends.
Dr. DeCucuillo has made the trek
out to California.
But here was still one question I couldn't answer.
How would I know when I was done?
And what was I really looking for?
[Rick] Both as spirituality and as grief...
to relocation of the other person is essential.
[Janice] It's interesting you should ask that.
My first response was
"That's not a person."
That is simply a mass of...
tissue and protein and...
fat and water and-
something leaves the body...
when death occurs.
[Kurt] What was I trying to find?
[Rick] To resolve our grief,
we have to be able to
accept the reality of that loss-
Who's interviewing you, Kurt?
Get our questions answered
to the extent that they can be and to...
basically surrender to the things
that we can't have answered.
[Kurt] And how would I know when I'd found it?
I appreciate you doing this for him.
'Cause I know he talked about you a lot.
He'd talk about you.
- [Kurt] Really? - Mm-hm.
Well, then you're not a good movie maker, huh?
[laughter]
'Cause hat's what he always told me.
I know he-I know he loved you.
[Rick] And then to be able to continue to live...
remembering the person.
To be able to remember their life,
not only their death.
No, no, no.
I can feel it, it's not far off.
It's too late.
[Kurt] I didn’t want to stop making this movie.
That would mean I'd learned everything there was to know
and finished my one last movie with him.
[Rick] Earl Groneman, again, says
"Grief is love's unwillingness to let go."
[Danette] He doesn't like to wave goodbye.
I'll miss you.
♪ Sentimental music ♪
♪ emotional music ♪
[Kurt] One more time. And action.
It is my brother that got married here tonight.
[Kurt] One more time. And action.
This is your Uncle Kurt.
[woman] Aww!
[Kurt] One more time.
And action.
[applause]
[Rick] And the person says,
"life will never be the same again, will it?"
They now know where they are
and what's involved in moving forward.
[Kurt] There were so many stories
I wanted to tell you.
And somewhere, I hope you're watching.
I almost gave up making this film when you were killed.
I couldn't see the point anymore.
But something kept me gong.
And then one day, I realized what it was.
This film was no longer a letter to you.
It was now a letter to someone else.
[David] We thought we'd go get Andrew and...
get everything organized, whatever,
and then kill ourselves, because
- no point going on. - [Clark] Everybody always says,
"Well what would be the difference
if one person weren't alive?"
You've still got a hell of a lot to live for...
and you still got a lot of friends
and a lot of family
who love you very, very much.
[Heather] You are the most amazing-
I love both of you.
And the strongest people I've ever known.
- I love you guys. - I love them very much.
I love them very much.
Now, how am I gonna do this without...
- weeping? - I admire you
and respect you so much for-
for two things:
one, for such a wonderful young man that you raised-
[woman] Doesn't matter what happened.
They raised a wonderful man.
Thanks for bringing such a wonderful person
- into the world. - You know, Andrew contributed
a lot to me as far as
who I am today.
We won't forget their son.
[man] And for having the strength
to make it through something like this.
[man] With what you've been through
to still be carrying on,
still to hold your heads up and keep gong
and pushing forward is amazing.
[man] They've done it in such a way
that it makes you proud to know them
and to be related to them.
I think God put some people down on Earth
just to be examples for the rest of us.
You are two very, very special people.
There's few things in my life that have had an effect on me
like those two people.
I don't know how else-I love them.
-We love you and- -We love them and-
We're always thinking of you.
And I think about them daily.
My thoughts are never far from either of you.
I love them and pray for them.
God's blessings on them both.
Oh, they know I love them.
I feel very blessed, as I say, to be among their friends.
Well, I just thank them for being my friends
for 30-odd years.
We are very lucky to have them as our neighbors
and our true friend.
God bless you guys and call me.
It does- [laughs]
as one of Andrew's very good friends told us
very soon after he was murdered,
We still have children.
Kurt, Matt, and Chris...
on down the list.
I feel like I got lucky in life because...
they're another set of parents
Kate and David were a big reason why I am
the person that I am today.
We're all their kids.
I'll always be there for you guys.
I love you both dearly.
We all love you guys so much.
[man] There's really nothing that I wouldn't do for them.
[boy] Do you feel better?
- Do you feel better? - [Jim] [laughs]
Yeah.
Yeah, you made me feel better.
I know that no matter what,
you're going to find ways to continue to help people,
because that's the type of people you are.
That's how good you are.
I just hope that Dave and Kate
realize how much he loved them
because just in the short period of time that I knew him,
that was the one truth that I knew to be absolute.
[Andrew] I'm glad I wasn't a rebellious youth,
because it would have been completely and utterly
fucking wasted on David and Kate Bagby.
Let me tell you.
I had my ear pierced for two weeks.
They never noticed.
I was finally sitting at the dinner table
and I was like- and I actually said to them
I'm like, "You know, Mom, Dad,
It's a good thing I'm not looking for attention,
because hello!"
And so they have a look at it.
They're like, "Oh, that's nice."
And I love you.
And I know you love me and, uh...
Yeah, I-I kind of need to move on from that
because I am a Bagby male.
We don't-we don't gush very much.